Adrian City Council meeting April 11, 2011 [About two hours in.] Mayor Larry Ritter: This next little deal is something that's a little bit odd. The city of Adrian has been asked to post a sign that says "In God we trust" and we also have to pass an ordinance if we want to do this. A resolution. It goes along with, I think, a lawsuit that's been settled in the state of Missouri and they're trying to get all the cities that will to be proud to say that "In God we do trust." So, it's before this council if you want to do this or not. Alderman Bob Hess: I make a motion that we do it. Alderman Sue Miller: I second it. Ritter: There ought to be some discussion first. Hess: It's the national motto. What do we need to discuss? Ritter: There ought to be some discussion, I think, first. Alderman Danny Ferguson: I'm going to be voting against this. Hess: What's the discussion here? Mike Burris from the local newspaper: How do you keep the ACLU out of this? Ritter: How do we keep the ACLU out of this? We'll find out. City administrator Lori Williams: Because there's another organization now called the ACLJ. Ritter: They've already settled this in court. Ferguson: Yeah, they settle it by saying "In God we trust" is not religious. They say it's "ceremonial Deism" or that it by rote and repetition has lost all meaning. If you are endorsing religion, you can't do it. So they say it's not religion. That's what the courts have done, but I don't think it will stand up for long. Hess: We're saying that the national motto is against the law? Is that what we are saying? Ritter: Well, that would be what Danny is saying here, I guess. I don't agree with that, but that's my view. I do trust in God. Miller: I do, too. Ferguson: That's fine, and you have that right. But I don't think it's the place of the government to make statements about religion. Miller: Like he said, it's the national motto. I agree with him. So it's not necessarily about religion. Ferguson: That's the very definition of religion. Hess: No, it's not. City administrator Lori Williams: Our country was founded on the religion of the founding fathers. "In God we trust" is on our coins and on our bills and in our capital. Ritter: I've never felt that it is necessary to force our religion on anybody, but... Hess: Religion, to me, is like if you are a Baptist or a Presbyterian or something like that. It has nothing to do with... Ferguson: There are more types of religion than just the brands of Christianity that have popped up. Hess: If you don't believe in God, I guess it shouldn't bother you. Should it? Ferguson: It does bother me. Hess: If there's no God, what difference does it make what we... The motto says "in God we trust." If there's people that don't believe in God, it shouldn't matter to them. Ferguson: Whether there is a God or not, it's just not the place of the government. That's my position on it. What do you think, Richard? Newly elected alderman Richard Corum: OK now, what exactly are they wanting you to do, put up a big... Miller: Here, has he seen it (the letter from Dee Wampler)? Ferguson: They want us to "prominently display" the motto. Hess: Just the national motto. Ferguson: Some cities have spent four or five thousand dollars and put up a big paint job or a big plaque. Ritter: We're not going to do that. Corum: Is this inside or outside or both? Ferguson: They want both. They want it up everywhere. Ritter: No. Miller: No, they said in the chamber or in the City Hall. Ritter: No, in the chamber here. We'll put up a little sign like that sign I put up. [Points to an 8.5 X 11 inch piece of paper taped to the wall.] Corum: I don't know why they feel it's necessary. I mean, if it's already on our money why do we need to display it? That one state tried to put the 10 Commandments and they shot them down. Of course, that's a whole lot different deal than just putting one sentence. Hess: I don't know what it is, but they're taking God out of everything. Williams: Well, the 10 Commandments, I just read that statute today and it stood in one state and it failed in another state. It had to do with who donated it, their background, and exactly where it was placed within the institution. Very confusing where Kentucky passed it and Texas failed it, I think it was. So, even the Supreme Court doesn't know exactly where to stand on this issue if it passes in one state and fails in another. Ritter: I put it on the agenda because I was asked to. Ferguson: And what do we know about this lawyer who sent you the letter, Dee Wampler, is that somebody you know or did he just look you up in a directory? Ritter: No, I don't know him. Ferguson: Do you know who he is or what he's about? Miller: I guess they are sending it to all cities. Ritter: They sent it to all cities. Ferguson: I looked him up. He's a defense lawyer down in Springfield and he's written a few books. I see this as probably just trying to sell more books and get his name out there. And I agree with Richard, I don't really see a need for it. Corum: No, I'm just... Is there going to be a thing that we have to pay for or donate... Ritter: Oh no, we wouldn't have to pay for it. Ferguson: We would have to pay for it. City clerk Melisa Newkirk: We would print it out on a white piece of paper. Corum: Oh, that simple? Ritter: It will look like that thing I put on the wall right over there. Corum: I don't know. I see no problem with that. Ritter: It won't cost us nothing. Hess: If you don't believe in God, I mean if there something wrong with God, and you don't think there's a God, this shouldn't bother you. Ferguson: OK, would you be all right if we put up "Allahu Akbar," Arabic for "God is great"? Hess: No, that's not God. Ferguson: "Allah" is Arabic for "God." Hess: No, it's not the right God. Ferguson: OK, so now we're down to which God it is. Miller: Alright guys, at this point we're not discussing whether it's religion or not, we're discussing whether we want to put this up in our chamber or not. It's not whether you believe in God or not. It's just very simple. Ferguson: No, that's irrelevant. Miller: The question is do we want to put it up in our chamber? We can sit here and debate all night long whether you believe in God, I believe in God, he believes in it. It doesn't have anything to do with it. The question is do we want to put our national motto up. That's all it is. Ritter: That's right. Miller: It has nothing to do with religion. Williams: Danny, you're a very smart guy. Look up one thing in your free time. Look up "Does carbon dating disprove the Bible." ( http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible ) Ferguson: OK, I'm familiar with a lot of that stuff and I think that's irrelevant as well. Williams: No, it's not irrelevant. Ferguson: "Does carbon dating disprove the Bible"? Williams: "Does carbon dating disprove the Bible." Just look it up when you get a chance. Ferguson: OK, I'll look that up. If we are going to vote on this, I've got a little statement to read and enter in the minutes. Burris: What's the city's liability if you do this? If the ACLU decides to pick Adrian, Missouri as their whipping boy for a trial, will you just take it down? City attorney Cindy Warner: What you do, you either vote to take it down or you vote to stand your ground and see if you want to take it up. And the part that I wrote to Danny is the ACLJ is kind of like the opposite of the ACLU. They'll come in and more than likely take up the fight on the side of if we post it. There's been these kind of battles going on across the United States all over the place, so I don't really think there's any liability in it for us because if they're going to come after us for putting it up, if you decide you don't want to fight the battle, you just take it down. If you want to fight the battle, then you contact ACLJ and ask them if they'll get involved. Hess: They will. Warner: And they take over the litigation of it and the fight and that's pretty much it. Former alderman Mike Lemon: Post a $100 bill up there on the wall. That says a lot. Hess: It says "in God we trust" on it, doesn't it? Williams: Yes, it does. Ritter: That's an idea. Miller: So does a dollar bill. Lemon: Frame it up. Ritter: That's an idea. Ferguson: Can we enter it into the record which God this will be? Ritter: I don't want to get into this, Danny. Warner: It's just a motto. Lemon: I guess it really doesn't matter if God is whatever God you choose then you trust in him or not. Ferguson: So, you don't want to say which God? Lemon: Why would it matter? Ferguson: Could we use the phrase "Allahu Akbar"? Would you be comfortable with that, Bob? Hess: Would you like that? Ferguson: No, I wouldn't like that either. Miller: That's not our national motto. It just says "in God we trust." It doesn't say... Hess: Let's just vote whether we want to do it or not, I mean good Lord. Corum: Sounds to me like they (Wampler) are wanting to stir up controversy. Ferguson: Certainly. Hess: Most of this country believes in God. We've got 15% of the country telling you you can't have God anywhere. Ferguson: You can have God any number of places. Hess: No you can't, you can't put it anywhere in government. Ferguson: In government. That's right. Hess: And the whole damn government that we've got was founded by religious people. It was. If you just read the Federalist Papers and look at it. Ferguson: Our government is not based on the Federalist Papers or the Declaration of Independence. Hess: Oh yes it is. Ferguson: No, I'm sorry, it's not. Our government is based on the Constitution. Williams: One of the last words of the Constitution says, "So help me God." Ferguson: No, I'm sorry Lori, but you're dead wrong on that. The Constitution does not contain the word "God," "Jesus," "Christianity" or "church." It contains the word "religion" once in article VI and once in the First Amendment and they're both saying things the government should not get involved with. It says there should be no religious test for office and it says the government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise. Hess: Yeah, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Ferguson: So, our country is not founded on... Williams: We have one person that's against it against one, two, three, four, five, six people that are for it. Ferguson: OK, can I read a short statement before we vote? Hess: Go ahead. Read it. Ferguson: Questions of religious faith are not the business of this municipal government. As Thomas Jefferson said, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." I support the right of everyone to express any belief or opinion they like and the government must protect those rights. As part of that protection, the government remains neutral on questions of religious opinion. Ferguson: I spoke in favor of the separation between church and state when I was a pastor and I continue to do so today as a non-believer. 35 million American citizens are non-religious and there are almost a million in Missouri. I've spoken with several people in Adrian, both religious and non-religious, who oppose the posting of this motto in city hall. Ferguson: We have gotten along just fine without a motto on the wall of our council chambers. If we were going to add one, we should choose one that's more inclusive such as the original motto of the United States, "E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one)" or the motto of Missouri "Salus populi suprema lex esto (Let the good of the people be the supreme law)." Ferguson: Regardless of your religious perspective, I hope you'll recognize that this entanglement between religion and government is good for neither the church nor the state. Our fourth President, James Madison, said it well, "I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." Ferguson: Thank you. Ritter: OK, let's either vote... Local government enthusiast Mrs. Patterson: Larry, when I went to the church, he (Ferguson) was the preacher of the Christian church. Now are you telling me now that you don't believe in God? Ferguson: That's correct, but I don't think it's relevant to the work we do here. I'd be happy to talk with you about that anytime. And I wrote an article for the church newsletter during that time that I could print off for you called "Church and State: Keep Them Separated." ( http://personman.com/church_and_state_keep_them_separated ) I listed out all the reasons why it was beneficial to church as well as state to keep those separated. Patterson: Yes, I've always heard that. Hess: Where is that written other than the fellow (Jefferson) who wrote the Baptist Church up in Connecticut saying there would be a wall between... that's not in the Constitution. There's no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Period. It's not there. Williams: The separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. Lemon: This whole thing has nothing to do with religion. Your decision has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with whether or not you are going to place the same thing that's on our dollar bill up on your wall. Miller: I agree. Lemon: To me, it has nothing to do with any of it. Ferguson: If a religious slogan about God doesn't have to do with religion, then what does? Lemon: I'm just saying, religion to me is something completely different than what you're talking about, but that's a whole different deal. You know, I'm not going to throw away my dollar bill because it says "in God we trust." I'm not going to be upset about it either, as long as it spends. Hess: So, you (Ferguson) don't believe in God, is that what you are saying? Ferguson: That's correct, though again, not relevant here. Hess: That's all right, I just wanted to know where you are coming from. Ferguson: Sure, and I'll be happy to talk with you on that anytime. Miller: Did you want to make a motion? Hess: I make a motion that we approve this, including "in God we trust" somewhere in the City Hall. Miller: I second it. Ritter: All in favor? Miller: Aye. Hess: Aye. Corum: Aye. Ritter: Opposed? Ferguson: Aye. Hess: Are we done? Ritter: I've got something first. I need to appoint a new mayor pro tem, so I'd like for the council to approve Danny for Mayor pro tem. He's been on the Council a while and proven himself to be pretty... Newkirk: Ah, that means we have to change all the signature cards. Ritter: Now understand that we might have to put Danny on the checks. We have to go through that whole thing again. Anyhow, I'd like to appoint Danny as mayor pro tem. Hess: I make a motion to approve Danny as mayor pro tem. Miller: I second. Ritter: All in favor? Corum: Aye. Miller: Aye. Hess: Aye. Ferguson: Aye. Thank you.